Hey! If you like the things I share, it would be swell if you’d invite some other people to enjoy them along with you. Everything is free, if you don’t count time as a currency, which, according to all the definitions of currency, it definitely isn’t.
I’m pretty excited about this.
One of the most motivating reasons I decided to begin an exploration of the relationship (and contest) between fiction and nonfiction, was as an excuse to talk to other writers and thinkers I admire about the thing I care most about: books.
I’ve been subscribed to Elle Griffin’s The Novelleist for a little while now, and it quickly became apparent that she would have some great things to say on the subject. In an effort to take my own advice, I finally worked up the nerve to reach out to her about it.
Well, it turns out good things come to those who ask.
What follows is, as titled, the Inaugural Fiction v Nonfiction Q&A. Probably I should work harder to come up with a better name for this project, but this one is coming perilously close to sticking. Oh well.
And away!
Jordan:
You've been working on a utopian book project called Oblivion to explore "a more beautiful future." You are approaching that exploration from two angles -- a fictional novel alongside a collection of nonfiction essays.
My theory is that fiction can be a more powerful medium of delivery for ideas because it foregrounds compelling narrative rather than the ideas themselves. From that perspective, how do you see the relationship between the nonfiction essays you'll publish and the novel itself?
Elle:
I agree with you on the "fiction is a more powerful medium for ideas," part. And historically that has been true: The sci-fi series Foundation inspired Elon Musk to launch SpaceX. Jules Verne’s Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea inspired Simon Lake to invent the submarine. Verne’s Clipper of the Clouds inspired Igor Sikorsky to invent the helicopter. Mary Shelley’s use of electricity to rouse Frankenstein’s monster inspired the invention of the defibrillator.
But those were also exceptionally popular books, and it is much harder to get someone to read a book than it is to get them to read an article. There are millions and millions of books that will only ever be read by a few hundred people, but an article can spark like wildfire across the internet! This is why I think it's worth doing my research in public, drawing readers in for the nonfiction content and then exposing them to the novel, where the dreaming can begin and reality is no longer a constraint.
Jordan:
I love that breakdown! It does seem to be true that nonfiction articles have a much stronger potential of virality than most fiction -- probably both due to length, and to the wider audience for nonfiction itself.
I can probably guess the answer to this question, but I have to ask because it would be rude to assume: Is part of the reason you are taking this two-handed approach to leverage the broader and easier reach of nonfiction as a marketing tool for your fiction? If so, what are some of the ways you will attempt to increase the reach of your nonfiction articles?
Elle:
Part of the reason? Yes. But the whole reason is that on Substack my art doesn’t have to be one thing, it can be far more expansive!
When I started publishing my first novel as a serial, I realized how much more interactive it was than writing in solitude and plopping the finished product Amazon, with no connection to my readers or what they might think of it. At the time I even wrote a post, daydreaming about how fiction might be changed by publishing it this way.
For instance, my first book was a gothic novel that took place in 1792 New Orleans. To research it, I toured the convent in New Orleans, kayaked through alligator-infested bayous, attended several sessions with psychics, studied apparitions in graduate school, and met with a historian from Tulane weekly to make sure I knew what oysters everyone was slurping and what cocktails everyone was drinking. I did that all in solitude, but as I began publishing my book I wondered: what if I had been doing that research live, right alongside my readers, and shared the whole experience with them via our community? I knew I wanted to design my next book that way—to do all the research and writing of it in public.
That's what I'm doing with Oblivion, and because it is a utopian novel the research is very focused on imagining a more beautiful future. I'm actually forming my thoughts as I write nonfiction essays, wondering out loud how we can build the ideal city or create the ideal government. When I put my ideas out there, none of them are set in stone—they kind of firm up from the conversation we have in the comments section. Many of my subscribers are also writing utopian or fantasy novels, and so we are thinking these ideas through together. And that is informing my utopian novel, which I'm writing live as I go.
I think of it as a literary salon, where we are sharing ideas together, forming ideas about the ideal society, and that is informing all of our art! So to answer your question—are my nonfiction essays expanding the reach of my work? Absolutely, but that's not why I'm doing it. And right now I'm not doing anything to expand their reach beyond what happens organically. (Though I will mention, that was not true when I was first starting out. Back then I pitched every idea I had to journalists.)
Jordan:
That is a tremendously encouraging perspective on the unique value proposition of Substack. The potential that this platform unlocks is almost too thrilling to deal with.
As someone who is also dividing time between fiction and nonfiction projects, I'm curious about how you balance your writing hours between those two efforts. Do you ever find yourself focusing too much on one at the expense of the other? I know that I've been guilty of avoiding confrontation with a thorny plot or character problem, for instance, with the excuse that I just need to do more research. So I guess I'm asking where the tension is, if there is any, or if it's just a magical dance of complementary work driven by self-reinforcing motivation.
Elle:
I shared the intimate details of my daily writing ritual here. But the short version is that I write from 7-9am every morning before work. I have a content calendar where I have all my essays and chapters scheduled, and I write in publishing order. So for example, right now my schedule looks like this:
October 31st, Chapter 3
November 7th, Essay
November 14th, Chapter 4
November 21st, Essay
I've already scheduled the chapter on the 31st, so right now I'm working on the essay that will publish on the 7th. Once I have that scheduled, I'll start work on chapter 4!
Jordan:
I admire your discipline! I've found that the more I can maintain a consistent schedule, and the clearer I am about my objectives, the more smoothly my creativity seems to flow.
Circling back a bit, is there a book of fiction that you've read that has had a lasting and meaningful impact on you as a person? This is me fishing for evidence to support my hypothesis that great fiction can be at least as powerful as nonfiction books in the category of "personal development."
Elle:
Yes, and I completely agree with your hypothesis. Not a single nonfiction book has influenced me the way novels have. Les Miserables is my favorite book (and my favorite Broadway musical and my favorite album). Nothing is as powerful as Jean Valjean's redemption story. He spends his entire life in pursuit of being good, and becomes one of the most powerful forces of good, even if he can never throw off the societal label of a thief, and never realizes he is good until his deathbed.
A Christmas Carol is my second favorite novel for similar reasons—Ebenezer's philosophical self-reflection is haunting—and not a single recreation captures that complexity the way the book does. The Count of Monte Cristo is my third favorite—again there is this man who was thrown into prison, only his redemption story is one of righting wrongs! Those three books were like reading about my soul, and allowed me to shape it the way I wanted it to be. My book Obscurity was my attempt at capturing my own philosophical journey.
Jordan
That reminds me of the extended dedication at the beginning of Steinbeck's East of Eden (my favorite book), where he says, "Well, here's your box. Nearly everything I have is in it, and it is not full..."
I will always be a vocal apologist for classic literature, so it's easy for me to respect your top three. (Also, special shoutout to Dickens, who was and might still be my favorite author.) For the sake of our own era, however, I'm curious if you could point to any work of fiction published in your lifetime that helped you through some particular difficulty, or to solve some particular problem.
Elle
Ahhh I’ve greatly suffered trying to find modern writers I like. They just don't make it feel beautiful anymore. We get right to the action, the plot, and ignore the inner journey. I mean, Les Miserables begins with a dozen odd chapters about a priest that has seemingly nothing to do with the story except that when that priest encounters Jean Valjean, we know why he forgives him and gives him all his wealth-thus precipitating the rest of the book. Modern editors would cut those!
In film, I think The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power did an incredible job of thoroughly exploring both the light and the dark inside of Galadriel (and Sauron to some extent). If we were to just jump straight to all the drama that is Sauron and Mordor and making the rings, we would have lost why it all happened in the first place. And we see that in her inner turmoil, which slowly unfolds through the first season.
In modern books…. Latitudes of Longing is my favorite. On Substack, Michelle writes Chasing the Sundog which I find extraordinarily beautiful—she writes nonfiction as though it's fiction and it's transformative somehow. The Colour captures everyday moments as though they were magic. But as far as fiction that helped me get through a problem? I don't think that has really happened to me. It more just shapes my thoughts, if that makes sense?
Jordan
It absolutely makes sense. My theory is that works of fiction need a lot of time to be vetted by their audience, in terms of their deeper values beyond entertainment. You can thumbs up or thumbs down something right away, but you may not realize the impact it has had on you for years, even decades. Which is why so-called classic literature is a more reliable source of human wisdom.
OK, last question: If you had to describe the best way to read a book for the first time, what would that be? Or, put another way, how would you describe the attitude toward reading that will yield the best possible experience with any given text? (It's possible this is just an invitation to talk about how much you love books again...)
Elle
The best way to read is to read a lot. I read hundreds of articles a week, several nonfiction books, several novels, a spattering of research papers. It is not one book that defines my ethos but thousands of writers sharing thousands of ideas through thousands of mediums throughout thousands of years. Exposure to so many ideas is what allows me to form my own—and that's what I write down.
And that, folks, is a wrap on Elle Griffin. I hope you enjoyed that at least 10% as much as I did.
Your turn:
I realized while reading this that while I have seen many interviews with authors, I don’t think I’ve ever seen or read an interview between two authors before.
That is mind-blowing because this was great! I think an author has the propensity to really get great stuff out of one another, and I am happy I now have more authors I can subscribe to. Do more of these please!